Preflop vs big 4b

    • Preflop vs big 4b

      Hero (SB): $37.41 (149.6 bb)
      BB: $44.98 (179.9 bb)
      UTG: $45.24 (181 bb)
      MP: $25 (100 bb)
      CO: $26.90 (107.6 bb)
      BTN: $25 (100 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with :ac :jc
      3 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.62, BB folds, BTN raises to $6.90, Hero?

      Hey, wanted to know what you guys do against a big 4bet. I face similar spots couple of times a day and i am not sure how to play this.

      I think against pool folding is fine since they arent 4betting enough.

      So lets assume Villain 4b a decent frequency. Do we even have a calling range against this sizing or are we just playing fold/shove? Does such a size even exist where we cant call anymore and how big is it?
    • The bigger he goes the less you call, up to a point where you just jam or fold, correct.

      How much to call vs each size exactly is takes a few steps.
      Generally you apply standard call framework: compare pot odds to realized equity. Knowing the real eq of certain hands is not easy but you can work on it with preflop solver solutions.

      In practice, if they don't 4b bluff much, just folding most hands is correct.
    • lnternet wrote:

      Knowing the real eq of certain hands is not easy but you can work on it with preflop solver solutions.

      I guess getting preflop solutions isnt that easy/cheap as well...

      Im just getting started with a solver and I would guess solving for 4b spots wouldnt take too much of computation power since the trees are quite small. Any idea if I could get any useful Results out of 32GB of RAM? I am using Simple Postflop
    • yeah, I meant 4bP. Not sure how Preflop Solver are working but I thought about giving the 3better a normal 3bet range and the 4better a <5% range. Since SPR is pretty small trees should be pretty simple and ofc we would use just a subset of flops.

      I am aware of the fact that preflop solving needs lots of ram, just curious about how far I can go with a normal desktop PC :)
    • chitz wrote:

      yeah, I meant 4bP. Not sure how Preflop Solver are working but I thought about giving the 3better a normal 3bet range and the 4better a <5% range. Since SPR is pretty small trees should be pretty simple and ofc we would use just a subset of flops.

      I am aware of the fact that preflop solving needs lots of ram, just curious about how far I can go with a normal desktop PC :)
      I am currently grinding on a >10 year old, 400$ i3 with 8 gigs of RAM and I use GTO+ which solves any 4bP scenarios in less than a minute, besides watching a stream, so if you have anything better than this (and I assume you do cuz nobody has such a shitty PC like me :D ) you're good to go.
      We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
    • sleepwalker87 wrote:

      and I use GTO+ which solves any 4bP scenarios in less than a minute
      Hey! Have the same software myself.

      1) if you'd like to exchange any info about using the software PM :D
      2) right here, i'm pretty sure people are talking about PREFLOP SOLVERS which are specifically to compute preflop ranges/scenarios, even though i'm not exactly sure how do they work or rather what kind of data you're supposed to input rather. Still, don't think that our GTO+ software can do such :)
    • I am not a huge pro when it comes to GTO+, but I would say I am decent, so if you wanna talk GTO+, sure, why not!

      Yes that is true, I was just a bit confused cuz OP wrote "Im just getting started with a solver and I would guess solving for 4b spots wouldnt take too much of computation power since the trees are quite small. Any idea if I could get any useful Results out of 32GB of RAM? I am using Simple Postflop".


      Preflop solving is very hard to do, you either need a NASA PC or a server farm :D And no, GTO+ does no preflop solving at all. But you can get GTO preflop ranges everywhere nowadays for mutliple sizing plans and rake infrastructures for 300$ or so.
      We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
    • 300 bucks each obv. 1k$ was monker like half a year ago, they are now cheaper. There are several other ones tho, don't have the link right now, but look it up on run it once, there is a thread where one guy sells multiple packages for as low as 300 or so (also each package 300 ;) )

      €: fulldecksolutions.com/shop-1/f…egory=6%20Max%20Solutions
      We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
    • sleepwalker87 wrote:

      300 bucks each obv. 1k$ was monker like half a year ago, they are now cheaper. There are several other ones tho, don't have the link right now, but look it up on run it once, there is a thread where one guy sells multiple packages for as low as 300 or so (also each package 300 ;) )

      €: fulldecksolutions.com/shop-1/f…egory=6%20Max%20Solutions
      ever bought ranges from that site? I found some posts that said its scammy.
    • @motiejus I am way to dumb to explaining why :D Maybe @lnternet can, but I would guess it is cuz preflop the stacksizes are still huge, 6 players left to act, just so much like cold 4betting, squeezing etc can happen, so many different sizes.... that is a lot of stuff that makes the gametree really huge, so I think all in all preflop is the most complicated street to calculate. And that's why it is so computing-intensive.

      @chitz No I have not and I read the same, but it seems it was because the guy was sick or on vacation or whatever and therefore it took some time for some people to receive their purchased products. I would assume they are a legit company, but I can't promise tho.
      We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off.
    • motiejus wrote:

      sleepwalker87 wrote:

      Preflop solving is very hard to do, you either need a NASA PC or a server farm
      oh, ok... I see you know about this way more than i do :D Can you maybe explain why PREFLOP solving actually takes that much of resources, or rather how does it actually work? :)
      Just my understanding about this subject:

      I would guess that preflop solvers just work the same way postflop solvers work, with the only difference that you have one street more.
      Preflop solving needs way more RAM because the gametrees are much larger. The solver needs to balance between SRP, 3bP, 4bP... etc. and on top of that you need to consider every runout: 1755*49*48 (flop*turn*river).
      So basically you need about 1755 times as much RAM (and time) for preflop solving than for postflop. One can reduce the memory needed by using a smaller subset of flops and easier game trees, but loses some accuracy by doing so.
    • Wow, yeah, that makes sense :)

      Still, maybe you have any idea about what kind of stuff we would actually be using as an input - positions, stack sizes and that's about it? '6 position table with 100BB deep stacks' doesn't sound like enough.... :D

      EDIT : thought better of it - well, the default sizings each position could use for every move possible (open-raise/3bet/flat/cold-4bet/squeeze,etc) is the major i missed, but is there anything else?

      Thank you for responses! :)