Donking On Board-Pairing Turn

    • Donking On Board-Pairing Turn

      Hello guys,

      have another hand that i wanted to share with you :)

      SB: $29.63 (118.5 bb)
      Hero (BB): $28.69 (114.8 bb)
      UTG: $33.23 (132.9 bb)
      MP: $30.42 (121.7 bb)
      CO: $25 (100 bb)
      BTN: $17.09 (68.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with :8s :th
      3 folds, BTN raises to $0.62, SB folds, Hero calls $0.37

      Flop: ($1.34) :8d :7d :9c (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.64, Hero calls $0.64

      Turn: ($2.62) :8c (2 players)
      Hero bets $2, BTN folds

      Linecheck??? Pre and flop IMO STD. What do you prefer on the turn? On one hand i didn't want it to check-through, on the other since there are so many draws possible, maybe it would be better to go for x/r, assuming we're getting bet into a lot?

      Thank you for responses!
    • I like your play. The turn 8 should improve BB range a lot more, and BU should be checking back a lot of draws, which i think people actually do. I think i prefer big size with 8x+ and some draws, your size is fine, I'd make it potsize. One small argument for checking is that villain might hit straight on the river T, when you hit FH, and he might fold some draws to your donkbet that would provide that scenario.
    • What are we going to do on the river?
      There are not much blanks except 2, 3 and 4, which we ofc gonna bet.
      I assume big size. But more like potsize or 2/3?

      Most cards bring a trips with better kicker, flushes, straights, better fullhouses.
      What is our line on these cards
      5, 6, 9, J-A and all „blanks“ that bring a flush
      bei deinem mindset, wieso openst du solche hands wie 79s
    • mnl1337 wrote:

      bet more to just polarize to 8x+/bluffs
      1) very broadly, what kinds of hands would make the most sense to bet as a bluff in this line, using BIG size, instead of x/c?

      mnl1337 wrote:

      bet much less to have a more condensed range to bet with
      2) could you clear it up a bit - 'condensed range' means rather the middle part of our range, not extremely strong (8x+), not extremely weak (stronger than bluffs we would balance 8x+ with), right? How does that fit into overall strategy - does it mean that we pretty much are donking 100% just with two different sizings (and accordingly chose the hands for them) or that smaller size just allows us to bet more often, so naturally with a wider range? It seems like it has two potential drawbacks - if we're just betting a wider range, but still have 8x+ in it (smaller size) our strongest hands do miss value / if the range that we bet with smaller size doesn't contain our strongest hands (8x+), could that, at least theoretically, be bad in any way, or are we pretty much protected by the board, particularly the turn card which overall improves BBs range way more than it does BU?

      Hope the questions are logical and clear, looking forward to hear the feedback, thank you! :)
    • hard hitta wrote:

      What are we going to do on the river?

      hard hitta wrote:

      Most cards bring a trips with better kicker, flushes, straights, better fullhouses.
      I don't think that playing the river would be that difficult here - on blanks we pretty much have a valuebet, unless we expect villain to go berzerk with missed draws if checked to (EV(check)>EV(bet)), but i don't think that's likely. On cards that do change the picture we are less likely (most of the time) to still have a valuebet, so we would start with a check probably, but it doesn't mean that we're automatically lose the pot by no means - we win at showdown 99.9% if villain checks it back and as for the hands that we would be afraid of - "trips with better kicker" - really unlikely, as BU should have way less 8x in this line compared to BB, "flushes" - well yeah, but we aren't going to lose a stack anyways once the obvious draws come in, not to mention T :diamond: or T :club: are perfect cards for us, "straights" - same thing - on river 6 or J we improve to straight ourselves, while on T river, which brings 4 card straight we have a lovely x/r with a full house, etc.... :)
    • mnl1337 wrote:

      Donk is fine but I would consider another size. Either bet more to just polarize to 8x+/bluffs or bet much less to have a more condensed range to bet with.
      I would agree if no straight was possible, but here with a lot of straight combos I think we already have quite a big size. Possibly even too big to be honest... BU can have full combos of boats with 98o 87o and a lot of straights with JTo, T6s 65s and maybe 65o. So our 8x range might even just donk half pot.



      Overall I wouldn't donk here, 8 doesn't shift ranges too much, as straights are possible and cbets with 8x aren't that unlikely as J8 T8 85 have backup
    • motiejus wrote:

      mnl1337 wrote:

      bet more to just polarize to 8x+/bluffs
      1) very broadly, what kinds of hands would make the most sense to bet as a bluff in this line, using BIG size, instead of x/c?

      mnl1337 wrote:

      bet much less to have a more condensed range to bet with
      2) could you clear it up a bit - 'condensed range' means rather the middle part of our range, not extremely strong (8x+), not extremely weak (stronger than bluffs we would balance 8x+ with), right? How does that fit into overall strategy - does it mean that we pretty much are donking 100% just with two different sizings (and accordingly chose the hands for them) or that smaller size just allows us to bet more often, so naturally with a wider range? It seems like it has two potential drawbacks - if we're just betting a wider range, but still have 8x+ in it (smaller size) our strongest hands do miss value / if the range that we bet with smaller size doesn't contain our strongest hands (8x+), could that, at least theoretically, be bad in any way, or are we pretty much protected by the board, particularly the turn card which overall improves BBs range way more than it does BU?
      Hope the questions are logical and clear, looking forward to hear the feedback, thank you! :)
      1) Combo draws probably.
      2) Bet big and bet small are two different strategies to apply. Mixing is possible but very difficult. When I bet small I basically bet everything.

      Btw Internet as always has a good point here. :thumbup:
    • mnl1337 wrote:

      Bet big and bet small are two different strategies to apply. Mixing is possible but very difficult. When I bet small I basically bet everything.
      Ok, i'll try asking it as blatantly as i can and yeah, maybe @lnternet could asnwer this a bit better (with all the respect, @mnl1337 :D ) - i'll just use the hand strength from this particular spot, not that it's correct, as you already pointed out, but just to make the question more clear. I'm rather interested in general, theoretically, when and why which of these strategies would make more sense to use:

      say i have 8x+ - aha! really strong hand, lets bet it BIG! Once i have a weaker hand, meh, i'm just betting range for a smaller sizing, but then in reality it's not really a wide-range bet with EVERYTHING, as it then lacks the strongest of hands, so how does it work?

      T H A N K Y O U ! :)
    • That is why he is saying bet big and bet small are 2 different and separate strategies. If you want to bet big than you have to polarize to 8x plus and bluffs, if you are going to bet small than you bet a lot of stuff, including your 8x+, and then you will have the strong hands in your bet small rangeas well. MNL actually says if you want to do a mixed strategy, like what you are proposing, it becomes increasingly difficult to do it in a balanced and theoretical way. You then have to bet big with your strong hands and bluffs, but leave some of those out and put them in your bet small range to protect that range, so that a thinking player does not recognize this and punish you when you bet smaller.

      At the stakes and site I play I think I would go more exploitative and just size based on strength of my hand and hands that I would be targeting versus villain, versus going with a theoretically balanced approach. If you go with the large size, then you will, in theory, be splitting your range already. You would donk some strong hands and bluffs, but then I assume you would be XC/XF some hands as well, so it is already difficult to balance all of this. If you donk small and bet everything than you can stay pretty well balanced and protected, but are guys you are playing at these stakes that in tune with all your different lines and ranges.

      When you have undercards that pair it is usually just a nice spot to donk, as the callers, typically, have more of those, then the bettors. Agree with Internet here though, that villain here can still have a lot of very strong hands.
    • Pretty much like @fawltyfelix says


      Assuming some donking is correct here (which I don't think it is here but whatever) you have these options:

      StrategyExploitability by OpponentEase of Play
      check everythinglowvery easy
      donk pot size a bit with some 8x+ and some drawsvery lowmedium
      donk small size with most handsvery loweasy
      donk pot size a bit and small size a bitzerohard
      Play by hand strength: pot nuts only, small donk medium hands, check weak handsvery higheasy




      Just because it is exploitable doesn't mean it loses EV though. Vs fish, the last option might be the highest EV. Vs a normal reg, the first 4 should all have similar EV.